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Hidden extra credit.I told you where I was in the pic. Can you find Denise? Post answer below or text to me with her circled. All guesses get credit, even if wrong.
Just for fun: Denise didn't even tell you she is "Chef Denise: on local TV "Great Day" with Kopi. You can see an episodes here
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Click this for Dave Wainscott's tatt story.
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Dave says: 1997 was a long time ago. So last millenium. The whole world and church has changed since then (anyone remember pay phones?). Tattoos have become much more mainstream. And I am not sure how my answer would differ today, but here's how I answered then:
Answer: Probably the best translation of Leviticus 19:28 is the NIV as you have quoted. Most of the purpose of all these OT laws were to call Israel to a life of holiness that was not conformed to the pagan practices around them and pure. note the emphasis on not mixing clothes, etc,. as a symbol of that unity of purpose). One of these practices was cutting or disfiguring (a rough equivalent of tattooing) your body as a way of atoning for the dead (a clearly pagan and I might note modern Mormon principle) getting the attention of whatever god you were praying to. A classic example of this is the prophets of Baal in I Kings 18:28. If a modern person has cut or tattooed themselves as a means of manipulating a deity *(including the Christian God) then that would indeed be sin. Since you are clearly not doing that, I would place a body piercing (clearly to me not the same as self-mutilation) and/or a tattoo under the area of freedom gives to each New Covenant believer to choose if they desire to participate or not. For some it might be sin, but the sin would be in the motive (to invoke a deity or to intentionally offend or blaspheme), not necessarily in the piercing or tattoo itself. Clearly, St Paul asks us, also, to be sensitive to not offending a brother or sister who does not sense the same liberty you do. So in some cases and places, discretion, or at least a lack of flaunting, would be appropriate. A note on tattoos: another reason they were forbidden in OT law is because it would be assumed in may case if a picture of a deity were involved, it would not be the God of Israel. So by extension, a modern tattoo picturing or naming a counterfeit god would likewise be dangerous and open demonic inroads.
And of course as you have noted so well, when is the last time you have heard anyone. even the most conservative Christian. claim that some of the mandates from this same chapter are directly applicable today: the beard (cutting your beard a certain way was also a pagan ritual of the day) and fruit regulations, for example. You have picked up on the two streams of OT law, which scholars often call "ceremonial law" and "moral law." As you have suggested, the 10 Commandments fall clearly under basic an intrinsic moral law, while the more ceremonially, or culturally-conditioned items (such as piercing, tattoo, fruit, beard) are not law that were ever meant to be lived out by people of another day and culture. or better yet, of a new Covenant. Didn't Jesus summarize even the 10 Commandments into the 2 Commands to love God and neighbor?
Of course many would suggest that this leaves an open door to ignore OT laws against homosexuality, for example. One cannot biblically make this case, as sexuality is fundamentally moral, or better yet, based on creation, as opposed to culture or tradition,. And besides, this behavior is clearly spoken against in the NT (1 Cor 6:9). Tattoos, piercing, fruit and beards are not.
1.I can't make a blanket statement about why people get tattoos or piercing. Some may do it just because they like the way they look; some to attract attention, some to fly in the face of tradition, some because they desire to witness to Christ. Maybe a large percentage of younger kids who do it, do it as an attempt to rebel or react against their parents generation, but I could never make a blanket judgment.
2.I don't see piercing as necessarily a form of mutilation generally speaking, though for some it may indeed be an intentional or unintentional way of doing the equivalent. Some may do it as a manifestation of low self-esteem or a self-hatred, but certainly not all.
3.I think God has a lot more important things to worry about or look down upon.
4.If an individual has a tattoo that is directly satanic or their conscience will not leave them alone after becoming enlightened or becoming a Christian, they have and should take steps to remove them. However, as this is not always possible , I can't believe God is not all that hung up on it. In a previous church, no one less than my associate pastor had tattoos he was sorry he had received. He was embarrassed by them,. and knew they might offend some Christians, but as they were not satanic, he did not feel pressure to have them removed at all costs. And let me state again, I have no intrinsic problem with tattoos in and of themselves, especially on persons such as yourself, whom I know and trust to follow the Spirit's guidelines for you as an individual. I wouldn't see the need to remove them unless you were so clearly convicted,. In itself, I'm guessing the tattoo is neutral, the way I read the Bible.
5.For some it may well be a generational thing; even the contemporary equivalent of something someone who grew up in the forties did that is now completely inoffensive in our current century and culture. But as this trend crosses generations, it is also bigger than that. link
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TIMELINES:Everyone has a life "timeline": you do and I do. Every Bible character does. Jesus did, which is one of the keynotes of Bib 314 (Read Kraybill p, 34, beginning with "Jesus had the chance, " and ending with "...Jesus rejected them all") Think about your life and some of the key moments, both highs and lows; tests and temptations. This is largely what we we mean by timelines; your life as a line or trajectory.
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So here below are the questions I got circa 1997 on my "Ask Dave" web column....
Dear Dave:
So what I am wondering is why this one verse is taken as still holding true today, and then the rest of the verses aren't. Also, the devotional writer said that tattoos and body piercing were a form of personal mutilation. I personally disagree because I have a tattoo and a body piercing, and I would not say that I did either as a form of mutilation. What do you think? Have we just forgotten these verses cause we want to secularize God, or have these old testament laws changed, minus the 10 commandments of course.
I'd like to know your take on:
I'd like to know your take on:
- 1.Why do you think people get tattoos/body piercing?
- 2.Do you think that it's a form of mutilation?
- 3.Do you think that God looks down on this...why?
- 4.If yes to #3, what should people do who have already done this?
- 5. Do you think it's a generational thing...especially body piercing?
Dave says: 1997 was a long time ago. So last millenium. The whole world and church has changed since then (anyone remember pay phones?). Tattoos have become much more mainstream. And I am not sure how my answer would differ today, but here's how I answered then:
Answer: Probably the best translation of Leviticus 19:28 is the NIV as you have quoted. Most of the purpose of all these OT laws were to call Israel to a life of holiness that was not conformed to the pagan practices around them and pure. note the emphasis on not mixing clothes, etc,. as a symbol of that unity of purpose). One of these practices was cutting or disfiguring (a rough equivalent of tattooing) your body as a way of atoning for the dead (a clearly pagan and I might note modern Mormon principle) getting the attention of whatever god you were praying to. A classic example of this is the prophets of Baal in I Kings 18:28. If a modern person has cut or tattooed themselves as a means of manipulating a deity *(including the Christian God) then that would indeed be sin. Since you are clearly not doing that, I would place a body piercing (clearly to me not the same as self-mutilation) and/or a tattoo under the area of freedom gives to each New Covenant believer to choose if they desire to participate or not. For some it might be sin, but the sin would be in the motive (to invoke a deity or to intentionally offend or blaspheme), not necessarily in the piercing or tattoo itself. Clearly, St Paul asks us, also, to be sensitive to not offending a brother or sister who does not sense the same liberty you do. So in some cases and places, discretion, or at least a lack of flaunting, would be appropriate. A note on tattoos: another reason they were forbidden in OT law is because it would be assumed in may case if a picture of a deity were involved, it would not be the God of Israel. So by extension, a modern tattoo picturing or naming a counterfeit god would likewise be dangerous and open demonic inroads.
And of course as you have noted so well, when is the last time you have heard anyone. even the most conservative Christian. claim that some of the mandates from this same chapter are directly applicable today: the beard (cutting your beard a certain way was also a pagan ritual of the day) and fruit regulations, for example. You have picked up on the two streams of OT law, which scholars often call "ceremonial law" and "moral law." As you have suggested, the 10 Commandments fall clearly under basic an intrinsic moral law, while the more ceremonially, or culturally-conditioned items (such as piercing, tattoo, fruit, beard) are not law that were ever meant to be lived out by people of another day and culture. or better yet, of a new Covenant. Didn't Jesus summarize even the 10 Commandments into the 2 Commands to love God and neighbor?
Of course many would suggest that this leaves an open door to ignore OT laws against homosexuality, for example. One cannot biblically make this case, as sexuality is fundamentally moral, or better yet, based on creation, as opposed to culture or tradition,. And besides, this behavior is clearly spoken against in the NT (1 Cor 6:9). Tattoos, piercing, fruit and beards are not.
1.I can't make a blanket statement about why people get tattoos or piercing. Some may do it just because they like the way they look; some to attract attention, some to fly in the face of tradition, some because they desire to witness to Christ. Maybe a large percentage of younger kids who do it, do it as an attempt to rebel or react against their parents generation, but I could never make a blanket judgment.
2.I don't see piercing as necessarily a form of mutilation generally speaking, though for some it may indeed be an intentional or unintentional way of doing the equivalent. Some may do it as a manifestation of low self-esteem or a self-hatred, but certainly not all.
3.I think God has a lot more important things to worry about or look down upon.
4.If an individual has a tattoo that is directly satanic or their conscience will not leave them alone after becoming enlightened or becoming a Christian, they have and should take steps to remove them. However, as this is not always possible , I can't believe God is not all that hung up on it. In a previous church, no one less than my associate pastor had tattoos he was sorry he had received. He was embarrassed by them,. and knew they might offend some Christians, but as they were not satanic, he did not feel pressure to have them removed at all costs. And let me state again, I have no intrinsic problem with tattoos in and of themselves, especially on persons such as yourself, whom I know and trust to follow the Spirit's guidelines for you as an individual. I wouldn't see the need to remove them unless you were so clearly convicted,. In itself, I'm guessing the tattoo is neutral, the way I read the Bible.
5.For some it may well be a generational thing; even the contemporary equivalent of something someone who grew up in the forties did that is now completely inoffensive in our current century and culture. But as this trend crosses generations, it is also bigger than that. link
-----------------------------------------
Headsup One of the best ways to PRACTICE interpreting a text is by doing in class something you do all the time:
Interpreting the text of a song/music video..especially when you can "Venn it" with two versions.
Notes from previous cohorts on the 2 versions of the song:
Songs as text: SLEEP LIKE A BABY
..
Sleep Like a Baby version 1
Morning, your toast
Your tea and sugar
Read about the politician’s lover
Go through the day
Like a knife through butter
Why don’t you
You dress in the colours of forgiveness
Your eyes as red as Christmas
Purple robes are folded on the kitchen chair
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns
like someone else’s suicide
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Dreams
It’s a dirty business, dreaming
Where there is silence and not screaming
Where there’s no daylight
There’s no healing, no no
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns like a suicide
But you’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Hope is where the door is
When the church is where the war is
Where no one can feel no one else’s pain
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns like a suicide
But you’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Sleep like a baby tonight
Like a bird, your dreams take flight
Like St. Francis covered in light
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Interpreting the text of a song/music video..especially when you can "Venn it" with two versions.
Notes from previous cohorts on the 2 versions of the song:
- Songs as text: SLEEP LIKE A BABY
..
Sleep Like a Baby version 1
Morning, your toast
Your tea and sugar
Read about the politician’s lover
Go through the day
Like a knife through butter
Why don’t you
You dress in the colours of forgiveness
Your eyes as red as Christmas
Purple robes are folded on the kitchen chair
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns like someone else’s suicide
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Dreams
It’s a dirty business, dreaming
Where there is silence and not screaming
Where there’s no daylight
There’s no healing, no no
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns like a suicide
But you’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Hope is where the door is
When the church is where the war is
Where no one can feel no one else’s pain
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns like a suicide
But you’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Sleep like a baby tonight
Like a bird, your dreams take flight
Like St. Francis covered in light
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Your tea and sugar
Read about the politician’s lover
Go through the day
Like a knife through butter
Why don’t you
You dress in the colours of forgiveness
Your eyes as red as Christmas
Purple robes are folded on the kitchen chair
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns like someone else’s suicide
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Dreams
It’s a dirty business, dreaming
Where there is silence and not screaming
Where there’s no daylight
There’s no healing, no no
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns like a suicide
But you’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Hope is where the door is
When the church is where the war is
Where no one can feel no one else’s pain
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
In your dreams everything is alright
Tomorrow dawns like a suicide
But you’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Sleep like a baby tonight
Like a bird, your dreams take flight
Like St. Francis covered in light
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
"Sleep Like A Baby ALTERNATIVE PERSPECTIVE VERSION
In the morning when you wake up
You won’t have much
But you’ll have enough
When you are weakest
I’ll be strong enough for you
Dreams
Yeah, the ones where you are fearless
Can’t break what’s broken
You are tearless
Steal back your innocence
That’s what they stole from you
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Not everything can be so black and white
There are demons in the broad daylight
But you can sleep like a baby tonight
Stop
Where you stand right now
Just stop
Don’t think or look down at the drop
The people staring from the street
Don’t know what you’ve got
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
No, not everything can be so black and white
There are demons in the broad daylight
But you can sleep like a baby tonight
Hope is where the door is
When home is where the war is
Where nobody can feel no one else’s pain
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Not everything can be so black and so white
There are demons in the broad daylight
You’ve got to sleep like a baby tonight
Sleep like a baby tonight
Where you stand
Where you fall is where I kneel
To take your heart back to where you can feel
Like a child, a child
But you’ll have enough
When you are weakest
I’ll be strong enough for you
Dreams
Yeah, the ones where you are fearless
Can’t break what’s broken
You are tearless
Steal back your innocence
That’s what they stole from you
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Not everything can be so black and white
There are demons in the broad daylight
But you can sleep like a baby tonight
Stop
Where you stand right now
Just stop
Don’t think or look down at the drop
The people staring from the street
Don’t know what you’ve got
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
No, not everything can be so black and white
There are demons in the broad daylight
But you can sleep like a baby tonight
Hope is where the door is
When home is where the war is
Where nobody can feel no one else’s pain
You’re gonna sleep like a baby tonight
Not everything can be so black and so white
There are demons in the broad daylight
You’ve got to sleep like a baby tonight
Sleep like a baby tonight
Where you stand
Where you fall is where I kneel
To take your heart back to where you can feel
Like a child, a child
--------------------
TIMELINES:Everyone has a life "timeline": you do and I do. Every Bible character does. Jesus did, which is one of the keynotes of Bib 314 (Read Kraybill p, 34, beginning with "Jesus had the chance, " and ending with "...Jesus rejected them all") Think about your life and some of the key moments, both highs and lows; tests and temptations. This is largely what we we mean by timelines; your life as a line or trajectory.
Click here and see some samples of the timelines of FPU students in blended classes. You will get a chance to draw and talk through yours while we are online together. This is always one of the most moving and key lessons of the course. It's often a life-changer and what students remember years later. Often they wind up leading timeline retreats and workshops in their eventual schools, hospitals and churches. Watch this short video of Trucker Frank. He doesn't use the language of "timeline" or draw his, he just tells his story.
Now you're ready to "show and tell:" your story/timeline.
==
r
Timelines:
here are yours from tonight:
Other classes:
It has been hugely productive,
revelatory, and (even) fun to, as part of a class that several others and I teach, have students plot out (on the whiteboard) their timeline.
As Pastor/Trucker Franks suggests below, sometimes it's "more about the journey than the destination."
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If you are on Facebook, you can see a collection of timelines by dozens of classes, retreats, etc by clicking here or below
Here's part of why we do these:
As Pastor/Trucker Franks suggests below, sometimes it's "more about the journey than the destination." See also "What if Torah/ מלכות השמים, is more 'journey than 'doctrine'?"
We then take time to interweave/intertext our personal timelines with the timeline/trajectory of Jesus' life in Matthew's gospel (the thrust of the class).
CORE MESSAGE?
- What's the core message of Jesus?
in Jesus, in large part, the “age to come” has come. The Future has visited the present.
any Jews of Jesus' day (and actually, the Greeks) thought of the Kingdom of God as largely a future identity/reality/location.
So when Jesus, in Matthew 4:17 announces that he, as King, is ALREADY bringing in the Kingdom,
So when Jesus, in Matthew 4:17 announces that he, as King, is ALREADY bringing in the Kingdom,
this not only subverted expectations, but sounded crazy....and like he was claiming to bring the future into the present.
The Jews talked often about "this age" (earth/now) and "the age to come." (heaven/future).
"Age to come" was used in a way that it was virtually synonymous with "The Kingdom."
Scripture suggests that:
The "age to come" (the Kingdom)
has in large part already come (from the future/heaven)
into "this age"
(in the present/on the earth
by means of the earthy ministry of Jesus: King of the Kingdom.
Thus, Hebrews 6:4-8 offers that disciples ("tamidim") of Jesus have
"already (in this age) tasted the powers of the age to come."
In Jesus, in large part, the age to come has come.
The Future has visited the present,
The Jews talked often about "this age" (earth/now) and "the age to come." (heaven/future).
"Age to come" was used in a way that it was virtually synonymous with "The Kingdom."
Scripture suggests that:
The "age to come" (the Kingdom)
has in large part already come (from the future/heaven)
into "this age"
(in the present/on the earth
by means of the earthy ministry of Jesus: King of the Kingdom.
Thus, Hebrews 6:4-8 offers that disciples ("tamidim") of Jesus have
"already (in this age) tasted the powers of the age to come."
In Jesus, in large part, the age to come has come.
The Future has visited the present,
Here are some articles that may help:
- =
- ----------------
Trucker Frank: The Kingdom of God is like a truck driver.
We asked
- Thesis of video?
- What did it say is the Kingdom?
- How is this his timeline?
- Journey or destination?
-----------------------
ONE GREAT PERSON?
ONE GREAT PERSON>My Dack Rambo story? Click here to read all about it, and for the sequel click:
" I Deny the Resurrection and I am not straight."
(uh, better click that title and get the context!)
MATTHEW 18
The primary purpose of this lesson is to complement your "Who is Great?" questionnaire and essay with a Three Worlds study of Matthew 18, treating it in large part as answers (better yet, "responses" or "counter-proposals") to the question the disciples pose to Jesus: "Who is the greatest?" As usual, we expect his "answer" to be "upside-down" and countercultural.\Video of class discussion and more:
- What did you hear or learn?
- How does using "Three Worlds" theory help interpret this passage?
- Thoughts on the Dack Rambo story?
- How is Jesus defining "greatness"?
- Respond to the provocative challenge of considering an unrepentant person who has offended you as in any way "great". Interact with the story of Dave's son, and add a personal story if one comes to mind.
- Students often find this discussion of Matthew 18 connects to themes or characters in Philemon. Any connections you see?
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Hidden extra credit.
Remember this "Heat is On" video? You may actually spot someone familiar. Why/how might Jesus consider Ken...squeaky shoes and annoying boss traits.. "great" according to Matthew 18?
Notice the pastor in that video quoted a Matthew 18 text. You are allowed to criticize how he used it. Did he use it out of
context? Did he use the Three Worlds well?
Reread Matthew 18:18-20 and decide if he was reading that text in context.
Post comments below.
Post comments below.
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we applied some "Three Worlds" theory to Matthew 18 and the topic of "Who is great?"
Related outtakes:
Of LITERARY WORLD note:
- -
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Page 19 of Syllabus,Matthew 18 Outline
(by Greg Camp/Laura Roberts):
1 Question #1: Who is Greatest?
2-17 Responses (each are counter proposals):
2-10 Response #1: Children
2-4 Counter Proposal: Accept children
5-9 Threat: If cause scandal
10 Show of force: Angels protect
12-14 Response #2: Sheep
(Who is temporarily greater?)
12-14 Counter Proposal: Search for the 1 of 100 who is lost
15-17 Response #3: Brother who sins (counter proposal)
15a Hypothetical situation: If sin
15-17 Answer: Attempt to get brother to be reconciled
17b If fail: Put him out and start over
18-20 Statement: What you bind or loose
21-22 Question #2: How far do we go in forgiveness?
23-35 Response #1: Parable of the forgiving king/unforgiving servant
----------------Read verses 15-17 and then ask yourself:
"What did it mean in their historical world to treat people like
"tax collectors and sinners?"
"What did it mean in their historical world to treat people like
Two answers
1)Don't allow them in your bounded set.
2)How did Jesus treat tax collectors and sinners? In a centered set way. Tony Jones writes:
but because anyone, including Trucker Frank, can speak freely in this church, my seminary-trained eyes were opened to find a truth in the Bible that had previously eluded me.”...That truth emerged in a discussion of Matthew 18's "treat the unrepentant brother like a tax collector or sinner.":"And how did Jesus treat tax collectors and pagans?" Frank asked aloud, pausing, "as of for a punchline he'd been waiting all his life to deliver,"....., "He welcomed them!""
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